Christian Perfectionism: When Obedience Breaks You | 029

If you’ve ever felt like you were doing everything “right” in your faith—but something still felt off… this episode is for you.

In this powerful conversation, Lenee’ Pezzano sits down with Christine Jaynes to unpack a rarely discussed reality:

What happens when your obedience to God… actually breaks you?

This episode dives deep into:

•  The hidden danger of Christian perfectionism 
•  How “good” theology can still lead to burnout 
•  The difference between obedience rooted in fear vs. love 
•  Why striving for God can disconnect you from Him 
•  How to discern God’s voice vs. internal pressure 
•  Breaking free from religious mindsets and performance-based faith 

Christine shares her raw and honest story of:

•  Marriage, motherhood, and extreme obedience 
•  Physical breakdown and emotional exhaustion 
•  Misunderstanding biblical submission 
•  And the moment everything began to shift 

If you’ve ever thought:
 “I just want to please God… but why does this feel so heavy?”

This conversation will bring clarity, freedom, and a fresh perspective on God’s heart.

Because God never asked you to carry what His grace already covered.

Connect with Christine here:

Free tool to help you practically walk with Jesus daily:  Walking in the Spirit Guide.

Christine's resource page.

Live monthly trainings and community in Christine's FB community.

Scriptures from today:

• 2 Timothy 1:7
   “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind (discipline).”
• Ephesians 3:19
   “To know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge…”
• Ephesians 4:16
   “From whom the whole body, fitly joined together…”
• Isaiah 54:17
   “No weapon formed against you shall prosper…”
• Matthew 18:20
   “Where two or more are gathered in my name…”
• Hebrews 10:37
   “He that shall come will come…”
• Hebrews 5:14
   “By constant use, learn to discern good from evil.”
• John 10:27
   “My sheep hear my voice…”
• Romans 14:23
   “Whatever is not from faith is sin.”
• Exodus 20:3
   “You shall have no other gods before Me.”

🌐 Connect with Lenee' Pezzano and The Redeemed Perfectionist

        👥 Find Your People -- Join The Redeemed Perfectionist Facebook
         Community: The Redeemed Perfectionist | Facebook
        📖 Embrace Grace: Discover You Will Make Mistakes       
         https://amzn.to/4hKwhpW
        🔗 Start Your Journey – Explore Resources & More
          https://www.leneepezzano.com/
        📱 Let's Connect - Follow along on Instagram:
         https://www.instagram.com/leneepezzano/
        📞Ask Lenee' Anything!: https://www.speakpipe.com/LeneePezzano
        💰Show support:  The Redeemed Perfectionist | Where Grace Meets Grit: Healing the Perfectionist Heart | Patreon

Transcript

Christian Perfectionism: When Obedience Breaks You | 029

Audio Only - All Participants: You and I often talk about obedience that comes from fear. Fear of punishment, fear of disappointing God. But what happens when obedience is coming from a place of confidence and security in God's love and yet still breaks you? 

My brain could not compute it. At first, I couldn't relate to my guest story…

until I could.

Because whether you are the classic gold star, high-achieving girl with secure beginnings or somebody who came from a terribly broken home, Christian perfectionism can still quietly shape the way you relate to God. 

It can actually make you think you're obeying Him when you are really carrying things He never asked you to.

So if you're listening to this today. and you're doing everything right, but something still feels off in your relationship with God, 

[00:01:00] stay with me. I believe you will walk away with a new pep in your step as Christine's testimony breathes fresh perspective and revelation to your soul and spirit.

Hey Sis, welcome back to the Redeemed Perfectionist Podcast. If this is your first time here, I'm really glad to have you. My name is Lenee’ Pezzano, and I would say to you that I could never have known that I lived under what I call an obedience stronghold. 

I know it almost sounds paradoxical, but I truly had the hardest time letting go of my version of obedience in order to receive the grace of God that actually equips us to walk in His version of obedience.

And now I'm on a mission to expose the counterfeit and restore the truth of God's heart and expectations towards His children. 

[00:02:00] And if you feel the nudge to spread the truth with me, please share, follow, and subscribe because to together, we're actually taking back Kingdom land.

MUSIC

Audio Only - All Participants: Christine…Hi. Welcome to the Redeemed Perfectionist podcast. Y'all, this is gonna be fire, so get ready because the woman that we have here today is somebody who's lived the word of God, the Word of God has formed in her, before it came through her, and there's so much I want you all to glean.

This is somebody who trains in truth and teaches other people how to train in truth, not just for head knowledge, 

[00:03:00] but for real life transformation in your body, in your soul, in your spirit. She's an author, she's a speaker, she's even a poet and an actress. Like literally I've seen this in action. It's crazy good. Christine, welcome. 

Hi. It's so good to have you. It is so good to be here. Tell our audience more about who you are and how you show up for others today. Well, sure. Uh, I am the founder of Train and Truth. Uh, this is where we, uh, train to fear less and lead more using scripture for strategy and body, soul and spirits.

Uh, I do this like you mentioned through, curriculum, both published and online. I also, as an actress, do spoken word pieces, so I'll take a testimony or a message and, 

[00:04:00] um, put a character on it and bring it as a monologue where, I mean, I, I think a lot of spoken word pieces are delivered like a rap, which, yeah, I mean, mine is, mine's just more like a monologue, so, yeah.

Yeah. Come in the way that God designed you and there's a particular person that will hear that and resonate maybe more than somebody else would, and that's just what it's means to show up and be you. 

Well, we're certainly gonna make sure the audience has access to you in all the fun ways in our show notes, but it didn't always start there for you, Christine.

And so I wanna talk today about what life was like because if we go back and we start to talk about where it all began, for you, you are somebody who, unlike a lot of our audience who maybe strove to please God out of fear you were not that way. You were sincerely devoted and passionate to Him, but you were misled.

[00:05:00] It was like it was the way in which the enemy changed and, and sort of, um, twisted the truth about God and that shaped how you loved Him, that shaped how you saw Him. And I wanna take the audience through that journey today. So where did it all begin for you? Sure. Oh, well, you know, I did not grow up in church.

I didn't come to know the Lord until middle school area. Around that time, my parents divorced when I was two. My mom actually left. So my dad raised me and he taught me morals and values. Uh, but I didn't. And oh, I mean, we went every now and then to church with my aunt and uncle, but I found Jesus, through a library book.

I was really, I had actually moved to, like, I went back and forth between my mom and 

[00:06:00] dad and I think it was sixth grade, the summer after sixth grade. And I was visiting my dad, for the summer. And he, he was not about having the tv, so I got to spend a lot of time in books. And so I snagged a bunch of books from the library and I ended up with a Chrisy Miller book.

I don't know if you know of the Christy Miller series by Robin Jones Gunn. It's like this teeny bopper series, and so I'm reading this book about this teenage girl who goes to her aunt and uncle’s for the summer, and she meets this group of kids and then at the end ends up meeting the Lord, saying a prayer to receive Christ as her Savior. 

And I remember being in the back of my dad's basement apartment and by myself in this room, closing the book. I'm like, oh, I could do that. Yeah. And I prayed the prayer to receive Christ. And like something happened, like physically, I felt my heart.  

[00:07:00] It like grew or something filled it, or like something in my chest dramatically shifted. I freaked out. Like it expanded. Like it just expanded. Yeah. I freaked out, called my dad in, and he knew exactly what had happened. He knew he just wasn't walking. Oh my word. So he explained, oh, that's Jesus coming into your heart.

And then we just kind of started walking together. Mm. And he tried to get us plugged into a church a little bit, but I was also bouncing back with my mom. And so I didn't really plug into a church, but I fell in love with the Word. Yeah. I fell in love with scripture, and so I was in scripture fairly frequently.

Um, and then I, I think it was high school when I started like really making it a pattern and daily just wanting, wanting more of this Word, you know? Um, and I felt, now did you and your dad get in it together or was this really just you and the Lord? Um, I think my dad did. Yeah. 

[00:08:00] You know, I, I do, I think, like, I know he started walking and we probably talked a lot more about it.

Yeah. Um, I don't ever remember sitting down with the Bible. Okay. You know, going through it with him. Yeah. It was, not until I was 17 when I stumbled upon a church and really found a, a church community and Okay. And then, yeah, then just started, stepped into ministry at age 19. 

And what did that mean for you?  Like if somebody had looked at your life during everything you just described from the outside in, what would they have seen? 

Um, confidence. I had a really good dad, you know, and so I think that that did a lot for me as well, you know? Yeah. As far as understanding the Father's love.

Mm-hmm. So, I didn't feel like I needed to impress people or, uh, have a lot of friends I don't know. 

[00:09:00] I was pretty confident and I left the word. I think that there was definitely some, judgment sometimes, you know, as a firstborn.  My dad was a first born too, so some of his legalistic black and white thinking was there.

It wasn't really evident until I got married, I think how. Uh, that's kinda where when you pointed out like some of the misconceptions I had, it was really very evident once I got married and tried to figure out wifehood and mamahood and, okay. 

Well that, that was, that was what I was gonna ask next.

Like at what point did you start to sense something was off in a way? And how old were you when you got married? 24. Okay. So you were four or five years there where you were confidently walking with the Lord as far as you knew. And then, and then here you are, you're getting 

[00:10:00] ready to enter into to marriage and, and how did you meet?

We gotta hear that story. Oh, well, I'm at church. we had the college age group and he led worship. And honestly, I was not interested in him at all. It wasn't there. Right. He was after me for like two years where we were like friends, like group.

Wow. I had to even be mean to him at times 'cause I didn't wanna lead him on, you know? So what happened? What shifted? I heard him pray. Aw. So there was this one evening we met in a home and there was tons of us. And, he would lead worship every now and then.

He's very skilled. He always seemed so immature to me. Yeah. and then somebody in the community had gotten severely hurt, uh, almost died, was in the hospital. Okay. And apparently was friends with David and had a big role in David's development. Yeah. 

[00:11:00] And so, uh, when a group went off to go pray for him, this leader in the community who I didn't know, so I didn't really, uh, I wasn't really in there, but I kind of sat on the outside to participate a little bit in the prayer.

Yeah. And I heard his heart. Yeah. Heard him speak to the Lord. And I got a little bit of insight of like, wow. There's like, okay. Some depth there, you know? Okay. Yeah. That was the seed your heart needed. The seed. Yeah. 

How long were you married before something started to feel off to you? Well, we, we got married and we got pregnant year one. Okay. Uh, I think he didn't want me to take birth control.

Mm. And so that was kind of the shift, like right before we got married, this discussion came up and. 

[00:12:00] Uh, as a big sister, I was eight years older than the sibling after me. 'cause the split parents split families. Eight years, then 10 years, then 13 years. You know, I had younger siblings and I really didn't have an interest in being a mom.

I had lots of responsibilities on me at a young age. Yeah. but the thing is, if the Lord said that I was created to be a help meet and that I was to submit to my husband and this man I loved and he was a good man, then okay. You know, okay, I'm gonna do it. And so, four C-sections and one miscarriage…five years later into marriage, things hit the fan. 

Wow. Four kids in five years. Four kids in five years. And a miscarriage. Yeah. Yeah. All because you in genuine love for the Lord, 

[00:13:00] in genuine, sincere posture of heart said, well, I must need to submit to my husband. And if he says he doesn't want me to take birth control, this is a rule.

If He wills, I'm gonna follow. Wow. Not my will, but yours, Lord. My body is yours. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously my health took a big hit. Yeah. The survival mode was insane. And of course everybody thought I was cra you know, I, I mean, I got Yeah. A lot of slack everywhere, but I was convinced, no, like, this is, I'm gonna do what the Lord has called me to do.

And I believed that, that He had called me. Yeah. To, yeah. And there was a moment I finally joined a gym because there's two hours, like the cheapest two hours of childcare at a gym. Wow. You know? Wow. And I was in a private room and I had started doing yoga, 

I am like in this room by myself. I've got my yoga app on 

[00:14:00] and I'm stretching and moving my body. And the yoga instructor, she goes, find a balance between effort and relaxation. And I literally laughed out loud, was like, are you kidding me?

How in the world is that possible? And it took me on this wild wrestle with the Lord, like, Father, how am I supposed to fight the good fight and let You fight for me? How do I run the race and be still like, what in the world does this look like? How does this, right? So like, so obedience started to feel more like pressure versus partnership.

You weren't finding joy in the Lord. This was a whole new dynamic. Now, for you, joy was something you chose? I believed, yeah. That I chose joy and I didn't need to like 

[00:15:00] feel all of these horrible feelings. Sure. But I could choose to think lovely, good, wonderful thoughts, right? Like, okay, all right. I could choose joy and I could choose to, except was that really working?

No, not my body shut down. Yeah, it did. Yes it did. It broke in a big way. And I think that's, and we'll probably get to this more 'cause I definitely wanna dive in more, but there's a pause for a moment where I wanna say these are some of the realities in walking with the Lord where it may look different for each one of us, depending on what's really going on.

Right? There's. The principle of, of warfare is real. The principle of choosing joy, of choosing a different mindset, of renewing the mind. Those are real principles, but there's another principle that I think gets lost 

[00:16:00] and that is coming just as we are and recognizing our body is in fight or flight, and that the words are not gonna set me free because internally there's a war going on in my soul, my nervous system's off.

I'm completely, it's a struggle. This is where I too love David because so many of his psalms demonstrate what it really looks like to come just as you are, pour it all out to the Lord. Then let's shift to the “but God” posture. But he didn't get to the, “but God” until he let it all out.  And that's a, that's a very real thing we have to talk about.

So, okay. So you've now been activated in a whole new way. You've now been asking the Lord all these new questions. Tell us more. 

Well, as I was wrestling with this, He told me, you know, when you get those cryptic thoughts, 

[00:17:00] that could only be the Lord. You know? He said, Christine, you're still the same clay that I started with.

Oh, wow. And I was like, okay. Getting down and like doing the research. What in the world? Yeah. And realizing, yeah, we were made out of dirt, we were made out of clay. What does that look like? And really unpacking, okay. I was denying so much of who He had made me to be. Mm. You know, like, but I am still all of the passions, all of my desires, all of my, all of that.

He had created me to be, I'm here trying to force to be something that He never actually asked me to do. Wow. And they're learning. I just went on this journey of discovering what his grace looked like and implement, like integrating and remembering 

[00:18:00] all of the unique things that He created me to be, you know, really getting down to that core.

And, and I can't tell you that season I had more encounters, supernatural, spiritual encounters with the Lord than I have. I mean, that was, 14 years ago, and I still, I'm so tight with the Lord, but a lot of the things that I talk about and preach about came from that real hard season where He just showed up and, you know, when we seek Him, we will find Him.

Yeah. And you were trying to do all this while having four young ones. Oh, I mean, and heal. My thyroid broke. And I honestly, it was so humbling, There's just a humbling that came and I don't remember when I had that specific epiphany in that yoga, uh, time where the Lord like lightning bolted me. I don't remember if that was in the healing after 

[00:19:00] my full-on breakdown but, it was such a long process of figuring out my boundaries and what it looks like to, what did the Lord actually say when He said He created me to be a help-meet?

Right. You know what, like there was particular theology that I had been going along with and so set in. Yeah. That breaking free from that was really hard and devastating to be like, yeah. Oh my gosh. I was deceived. You know, right. Lord, we talk every day. Why wouldn't, why couldn't you tell me? Yeah. Why?

Right. I mean, so let's go there. What must it have been like to be getting revelation that you've been deceived, that there's been an underlying belief about God that you didn't realize you had, and you're realizing you are not walking in who He's created you to be.

You need boundaries now, but you can't go backwards 

[00:20:00] and change the fact that you got married and you had four children when you weren't even sure you wanted to be a mom. Like you're not gonna be able to change any of that at this point. What was that like for you?

The thing is, when you know the Lord, you know that He turns all things for good and that his intentions for you are always good.

And if He allowed me to be deceived in this way, there was a specific reason for it. Amen. And now I have these four individual men of God. Amen. And I have a marriage. Now we're gonna be celebrating 20 years. And I can't tell you the trenches that we walked through and even just the things that we broke in our families, you know?

Yeah. As we are stepping forward, stepping forward and forward, and even what the Lord's gonna do outside of even just us in the Kingdom. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So I think that there's this realization of

[00:21:00] how good God is when you know His character, when you know Him. Like I knew Him and that's why I was almost so offended.

I'm like, we talk Lord. Like what? Like what's up? How could you keep this secret from me? And there's a reason, you know? But I love that perspective. I sit here, of course you're 14 years on the other side, but look at the perspective. Think about it for godly men who I also think of lineage, you and your husband got to change both of your lineages for the future generations.

You've created these men of God in partnership with God that now can change generations. You've handed down something that may never have otherwise gotten handed down. That is amazing. That's perspective. He wanted them. Yeah. Yes. He wanted these kids. He did. If it takes me, have Him to like Yeah. go through some trenches 

[00:22:00] and some, some hard battles of learning what boundaries look like in marriage and learning Yeah. what my real identity is. Then okay. You know, I'm in, I'm in it. Yeah. Like I was ready to sacrifice my womb and my body and my time and my energy for it. Well, okay. Yeah. 

And, and I think about, obviously this is the Redeemed Perfectionist podcast and perfectionism is so often connected to performance and so many of us wanted to please God passionately. Now, some of us had a fear of punishment. That wasn't your thing, but there were underlying beliefs about God and that season for you that you maybe now could put words to that you couldn't then. 

So looking back, how would you describe what some of those underlying beliefs were about God?

I think honestly, it was that wrong theology of who He created me to be, helped me. 

[00:23:00] Is is not just for one man, right? Yeah. It is for all creation, right? and I felt like, I wanted so much to be all that He had made me to be. Yeah. And as I drove and beat my body and my brain, I drove and beat my soul in, in that direction. How it broke my body, learning, about how anxiety and depression, I totally thought that was all a head game, right?

I thought that that was all, and then when it hit me in a when my thyroid broke and I experienced all of that, and it wasn't because I was wrong spiritually it was because myy body was so broke. Yeah. So I, I had to learn how to rest. Yeah. I had to humbly be like, okay the best I can do today is smile.

Yeah. Like, you can't perform obedience right now. Obedience for you in that moment had to be rest.

[00:24:00] be It had to surrender to these other aspects of reality. That's a really very, very powerful, I mean, he was breaking honestly, religious mindsets. Right. That's how I would describe it.

There's, there is a counterfeit, there was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Not just evil. There was the tree of the knowledge of good, neither of which is the tree of life. So coming to know the Lord as the Tree of Life where we do all these really good things and they're still not leading to life.

Mm-hmm. And you were doing amazingly good things, but under a deception you didn't realize was there. It wasn't the Tree of Life. Yeah. It's a, it's very powerful to hear how the enemy twisted God's word in your mind or twisted His expectations of you. Yeah. Yeah. And it was very subtle. It was. Yeah. It was.

[00:25:00] And, I came to learn and realize like everything was so black and white, it seemed in my head. Mm. Yeah. You know, everything was black and white. The Lord was clear about things. Yeah. But as I grew and experienced some real life and learning that something can have some truth and some falsehood.

Yeah. A mixture. Whether it's a sermon, you know, that we can take the meat, cut off the fat, you know, and it was so hard for me to hear something that was mixed because I couldn't, I couldn't determine that Yeah. in my head. And what the Lord showed me is that His word is so colorful. Yes.

If you look at the world around us and the depth of color that we have here, and they say Heaven is like insanely better. 

[00:26:00] Yeah. But indescribable. Yeah. When you look at the Word of God and I also wrestle with all the different denominations and the different perspectives of um, you know, the body experiences God so differently, right?

Yeah. And so not being raised in a church, coming into kind of a, a seeker friendly sort of church is where I started doing ministry. And then experiencing all some of these different denominations and these different languages of how people, different dialects of how people experience God. Yeah. I think the Lord has been doing something in me to try and help discern and give language to some of these things.

And part of that is that the word of God is so colorful. That's so good. There is not black and white so good. Yes. There are certain things obviously. Yep. But the way we all experience God is so unique and beautiful. Yeah. 

[00:27:00] And different. Yeah. That it's just can't be black and white.

It's just can't, we can't put 'em in a box. And I think that's, um, that's been scary, I think in my breaking free from perfectionism and people that I speak to that have struggled with it because it's a form of control. It's a self-preservation coping mechanism. and freedom can be very fearful, black and white rules, putting God in a box is safe.

Yeah. But color can be very, very scary and so beautiful when you actually begin to surrender to it. Yeah. 

So how did things begin to shift and what was happening in your relationship with your earthly husband? How was he responding to this? How were you revealing to him? What was going on inside of you?

You know, it was years. Yeah. So I can't really tell you that it was this one thing, 

[00:28:00] but it was thing after thing after thing, you know? Yeah. there was one point where I went and got some birth control against his will.

Yeah. I brought it to him because I was scared outta my mind. Yes. That like, if I got pregnant again, my uterus was gonna burst. I could die, you know? Like I didn't know that it was gonna burst, but that was a huge risk. Yeah. Four C-sections in five years where my last baby was in the NICU and it took her twice as long to to deal with my surgery.

So of course that moment was a boundary setting moment. Yeah. Yeah. There was of course where a lot of other things happened in little ways where I had to start. Yeah. Wait, it's not my responsibility. Wake my husband up for work. No, he can wake himself up, like it's his, you know, like just those little things, right?

Yeah. But then there was this big thing and honestly, it probably 

[00:29:00] contributed to my thyroid crash, you know? There were so many different things Yeah. That happened. Wow. In, in that season, and obviously, maybe you can tell I wear my heart on my sleeve, like I'm pretty honest.

So a lot of the revelations I was coming to, I was telling my husband Yes. Like, and he is, he's a good man. He's not overly praise the Lord. God is so good. He knows. Yeah. He gave me a man who, who wasn't super controlling Yes. Per se, you know? Yes. Yes. although we both bought into a certain lie. Yeah. he was raised by his single mom.

We watched certain marriages from afar, but I mean, we didn't know we, we were doing best we could. Yeah. Didn't know what you didn't know. Right, right. and realizing, honestly, one thing that had happened was I had put a lot of pressure on David to be the lover of my soul.

[00:30:00] Yeah. And when God started really wooing me back to Himself Hmm. and starting to understand that Dave could never meet the needs that I had. Yeah. He is human. He can't. Yeah. And so when the Lord really started drawing me back to Himself in such this intimate way As a lover. As a lover.

He is the lover of our soul. Holy Spirit comes into us and brings us new life. We get encounters with him that echo intimacy in marriage. He's the Lover of our soul. Yeah. And so when that be like some revelations, He started revealing such beautiful things to me about this. It gave my husband so much freedom to be him and the pressure that I had unintentionally put on him to be the leader, to make all of my decisions for me.

[00:31:00] Yeah. Where I wasn't actually accountable to God. Right. Because, right. Oh, he makes all the decisions. So my responsibility is just to obey him. That's kind of in my head this lie that I had. When I came to realize, no, no, no, all of my decisions I'm gonna have to answer to God for, and that was one of the reasons that I went and did birth control 'cause I'm like, I'm gonna have to answer to God If my uterus bursts, you know, if I get pregnant and I'm not here to be a mom for my kids, I can't say, oh, well he made me do it. Yeah. Right. 

Well, and that's, this is the whole have no other gods before me. Yeah. This is the whole, if you do something, scripture says, not in faith to you, it's sin.I mean, these are realities of the truth. And God's precious heart didn't come and beat you up because of your deception. He did not condemn you. He simply began 

[00:32:00] to woo you and initiated a process of bringing you out of deception. He initiated a process of conducting surgery on your heart, little by little and, exposing old belief systems and bringing, the transformative process of renewing your mind.

Like this is the heart of God, right? This is so much of what I want the listeners to, to understand is, He doesn't have this measuring stick where he's sitting there measuring every one of your actions and then grading those actions and calling you a failure. He. Instead is redeeming us little by little and like a sweet parent who celebrates the growth of their child and marks how far they've grown and puts a little pencil mark on the closet, you know, wall, He, that's how God, I mean, God measures our progress and focuses on how far we've come.

[00:33:00]And He's just so faithful. And His heart is so different than what so many of us have believed, who have lived in this world of, you know, religion and, and perfectionism and the shoulds and the rules, which is all, really a counterfeit gospel. It's all law, it's not Life. And I wanna acknowledge the heart of God and how in your story we can see His heart showing up and how He showed up for you.

That is just absolutely amazing. So when you started to draw these boundaries, did you see a shift in the way that you related to God? How was that starting to change? I mean, obviously this was not a one-time event, so this was a journey, but you began to wean off of your husband as your God, and you began to develop your own deeper walk with the Lord.

One of the main things that shifted was that my attention wasn't so much on my husband, but on my relationship with the Lord. 

[00:34:00] Yeah. In my growth, in the revelations that I was getting to have and trusting that the Lord was gonna do that in him as well. Mm. and the Lord was so faithful to reveal, he gave me eyes to see Dave in the spirit and how he saw Dave.

Mm. Because I pray that over and over I wanna see him the way you do because honestly, he was being an a-hole. Yeah. You know, in this season. Yeah. My husband and I'm, I know that I was no walk in the park. Right. Especially when my body was breaking and I was depressed and anxious and like all of these things.

Right. But, uh, he was insensitive jerk. but when the Lord gave me eyes to see him the way He saw him, it was breathtaking. And then to see the enemy on our marriage, the way the enemy was. He gave me some eyes in the supernatural to see some of these things, and it gave me so much, uh, well insight perspective.

[00:35:00] Yeah. Yeah. Right. and really starting to understand who He had made me to be as the royal warrior. Yeah. You know, as I was talking about that wrestle between, um, the, the fighting the fight and letting Him fight to be still and run the race at the same time, learning me, equipping that I had as a daughter, a lover, a friend and sister to the Trinity, like this identity and this relationship that I had with God, the authority that I had in that.

Yeah. To be at peace, to actually, yeah, choose joy, but also have the equipping to advance the Kingdom and to be a warrior, get 

[00:36:00] dirty and slash some demonic strongholds, you know? Yeah. Like, yeah this balance that we have in as, as a royal warrior, you know, is Yeah, yeah. In the, I mean, you were now, this is what it meant to be a helpmeet.

Yes. This is what it means, right? It is. Now you're showing up wholly surrender to the Lord as a whole human being. I mean, obviously we're all still being made whole, but as whole as you could be at that moment. Yeah. On behalf of the Kingdom, on behalf of your family, and you are going to war for your family, for your husband.

So you are walking side by side, with your husband and with your Heavenly Husband. I mean, that is just, it's like the contrast between pressure and extremes and misinterpretation. Yeah. And then now you're walking in partnership and clarity and authority and safety. Wow. Freedom. Yes.

[00:37:00] Freedom. This is what we mean. And so now you're still wanting to obey the Lord, but you have clarity on what obedience means and you still have to do your part. And that's what you're now doing at this point. I mean, that's just amazing. That's so powerful. That's even getting me jacked up. And I'm, I'm not married, but the Lord said one day I would be, and I'm learning just from hearing your story, I mean, how incredible. 

If you're a single listening to this episode, take note, now is the time to fall in love with Jesus and, and learn what it means to, to know Him by yourself and know Him more fully. 

Uh, so Christine, what does it look like today to step into ministry? You had mentioned a few times today, you were about 19 and you really started to minister.  I can only imagine ministry looks way 

[00:38:00] different for you today than it did back then. Oh, well the seasons, yeah. You know, the seasons, yeah. It looks different in so many seasons. And, getting pregnant, year one, like honestly, I stepped out of it for a while as a, as a pregnant woman, I wasn't really engaged in church so much.

I did, you know, connect with individuals every now and then for mentoring. And then my husband led worship and in different areas, God took us to different places, to different churches. some ministries shifted in all of those ways, but as a young mom it was hard to watch my husband get to go to ministry, and my ministry was in the house, right? Like, yes, okay, Lord, okay, I'll do the messy, mundane, everyday thing. 

And honestly, one of the perspective shifts during that time was 

[00:39:00] the Lord showing me how I was actually, um, kicking Satan in the face by singing in the kitchen, doing the, the mac and cheese doing, come on my PB and J.  Uh, if I could smile to my boys when like, I was like so over this mundane thing. But if I could love well, and choose joy, you know, then it transforms things, right? And there was such a good practice for me in that. Yeah. And then that's so good. and then when the boys started, once they got into school, I knew I needed to write a book.

Yeah. So as soon as my littles were in preschool, I started writing. And that's where Crown and Sword came from -- spiritual training for becoming a royal warrior. And even after that, I still had littles. I still wasn't able to go lead the things or to be out in the world. 

[00:40:00] And that's why I started online, you know, like, okay, yeah, yeah, I'll just go online if that's what you want, Lord.

And uh, just continually just putting the things that He was teaching me and showing up and yeah. Sharing faithfully, um, to the best of my ability, you know? So…

I think that's one of the things I've loved about you is that you minister from a place of what I would call reality. You know, you think about a valley and a mountaintop and most of the time people don't live on top of the mountain; they live down in the valley. That's where the communities are, and that's sort of metaphoric, to the mundane. And you've always, just since I've known you had a, um, a message that, really speaks to showing up consistently, developing diligence in your life, doing a little bit every day, 

[00:41:00] if that's all you have, giving whatever you have within the capacity that you have it.

And God is the one who gives increase. He gives exponential growth to the things that we sow time and time again consistently. And I just think that's powerful. I think. Many people need to hear it. I mean, you look at, even today, here we are in 2026 and I'm seeing particularly in the Christian charismatic realm right now in the ministry realm, God's having to bring so much judgment on, on all of that to purify His Bride and His Body.

And it's just so important that we truly understand that He's gonna have a Bride whose character aligns with His, and we don't develop character, in the gift realm. You know, the gifts followed Jesus. They didn't go before him. 

[00:42:00] Character comes first. Yeah. And the giftings pour out of that.

And, uh, and yeah, so I just, I commend you. I'm so appreciative of people like you who understand that principle in scripture. 

What else? what would you say to the woman feels like she would do anything for the Lord?

Get in the word. One of my biggest drives is that disconnect between the spiritual and the mundane. Like you said, way back in the day, I would feel my spirit stirring. Like I would feel the truth and I would sense the goodness of the word or a good preaching and then it's like, okay, so the next day, what does that look like? How do I apply that to real life?  It just, there was such a disconnect. and then after my whole leaning into wrong theology, I would say it's really important, not only that you are consistent in the word, but that you were broad in it as far as you are not just listening to one teacher.

[00:43:00] Right. We need to have a variety of teachers That's good. to give us perspective, in different areas. Because there was a book that I kept right next to my Bible that kept me in that cage of my thinking. Yeah. So I, I read that book, Created to Be a Helpmeet.

And I read, my Utmost For His Highest. Yeah. Phenomenal book. Great, great man. Great writer. But they're very disciplined oriented. Yeah. Once I stepped out and started reading more material about grace, like girl, right. And freedom in Christ girl. Like there's just, we need to have, um, some broad teachings, I think, and to know and practice discernment, and to study context.

 I want to put, I wanna punctuate that because this is where you and I are so similar. 

[00:44:00]  I, because of how I was raised and my personality and my love for obedience and the fact that I can be very disciplined, it was easy for me to see God as the Lion. Mm-hmm. And when he began to show up as the Lamb, meaning His more tender, gracious, -- the Lamb is not weak, by any means, but there is a gracious, tender, compassionate, merciful kind component to the Lord. And I actually thought that was a counterfeit when He showed up that way. And I was in circles of, uh, the groups that were safe for me, but that continued to feed this mixture in me.

It's not that what they were teaching was wrong inherently, in and of itself, but when mixed with my bad theology it became a 

[00:45:00] recipe for a very strong imbalance. And I can't agree with you more. I have had to expand my diet. My diet consisted of certain things only, and you know, if we just ate the same thing all the time, we're missing out on the nutritional value of other types of food.

And it's really good. We know this in the natural to mix up the food we eat and to bring other things into our diet. And so I have had to do the same thing, you know, and it's so beautiful because it's not giving up one to get the other. It's just the expansion concept again. And so we get to preserve this warrior in us that it is inherently who we are.

We're Lionesses in the body of Christ, and I love that. But when I can show up in such a loving way towards somebody who hasn't had that revelation instead of a critical, judgmental way, 

[00:46:00] when I can receive His love now, and then I can love others as I love myself --because we can only love others to the degree that we're able to love ourself -- it's a whole different ministry. It's a whole different life. Yeah. It's powerful. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. 

I would also say that Kingdom warfare is in the practical too. Hmm. So. Stepping forward when you don't feel like it, like when you're, when you wanna have an a little emotional fit. Yeah. And a temper tantrum.

Choosing to go on a walk, choosing to make dinner, choosing to smile. Yeah. These things, this is warfare. That's right. So this is actually breaking strongholds when you choose to do what you 

[00:47:00] know that the Lord has for you. That's right. You know, what is the next best thing. That's right. 

Yeah. You know, it's the choosing life versus choosing death, right? Yeah. And so one of the things I wanted to say a moment ago, uh, that's coming back is, you know, to the woman who maybe feels like she would do anything for God, but isn't sure she's hearing Him clearly, I wanna give you permission that if you're in a situation, I don't care what the details are, and your gut or something in, in you feels like, ugh, that just doesn't seem right to me, but you you know, you have this theology that says, well, I'm probably wrong. I should, this is probably what God's really expecting. Like for you, it was like, I should be this kind of wife when all along that was wrong. Right? So you're hearing God's voice a lot of times when your gut is telling you 

[00:48:00] or you don't have peace about something, it's a, sometimes it's a subtle nudge.

It doesn't necessarily mean He stuck the message on a billboard and, and I want you to know. God's talking to you. Trust that that's His voice calling to you to say, you're hearing Me, My sheep know My voice. Mm-hmm. And then you feed that in a good way. When you honor that and you follow that, and maybe by honoring and following that, you have to draw boundary with somebody.

Mm-hmm. You know, maybe, maybe you have to speak up when all along you've kept quiet. But you know, the right thing to do is to speak up. And Christine, to your point, it's conducting warfare. When you choose to let that nudge make you budge, I always say, you know, and when you start to feed that voice, then your discernment of the voice gets stronger.

[00:49:00] Your ability to hear God get stronger. In Hebrews, it says, by constant use, learn to discern good from evil. Mm-hmm. You have to practice the principle for the discernment to grow Yeah. Yeah. And I think we also need to know that He will correct us. Hmm. So good.

So if we get it wrong, He is faithful to pick us up again and He is faithful to reveal Himself. I just think so much of life is almost trial and error, right? Like, okay, Lord, is this the way? I don't know. And you take a step, is the door gonna close or is it gonna open? Or how is this gonna work? Yeah. You know, there's so much grace and freedom knowing that we are hemmed in by the Lord and when we are looking to Him. 

[00:50:00] If our heart is on Him and we are saying, Lord, we I want to hear you. I want to see you, and we are focused on Him and we take a step we can trust that He will guide us, that He will direct us and that we are with Him.

Right? Oh girl, you just probably activated anxiety in the listeners who, who struggle with perfectionism and I feel that pain. If you're listening right now, I feel your pain because I spent years not okay with the reality of what you just said. Yeah. 

Again, we're back to the color and we're back to the freedom because it's not about making the perfect decision.  It's not about having the perfect outcome. Yeah. And you know, it is important to pray about things and, and know your season and mm-hmm. If you're one who can be hasty and your 

[00:51:00] tendencies, that's a potential pitfall for you, then maybe the best thing to do is pause and pray before you move. For others who don't move enough, maybe it's go until it's a no.

It's, this is the colorful journey with Jesus. There's no formula. Um, and that can be hard. It can be so hard and so scary and, you know, think about like. Oh, this is another good principle. Like you had the law before life came and the law was a tutor to teach us right and wrong. And think about when you're raising little kids, it starts with law.

You put boundaries on them. You have rules because you're trying to instill habits and behaviors that are gonna form a character that will be appropriate for the society in which we live. But then as they get older, right, you start to permit them to make some decisions. 

[00:52:00] Instead of telling them what to do, you start to give them freedom and you let the reins out a little bit and then you see how they react, and then you decide if you have to pull 'em back in and do some more teaching or, and so as they get older, there's this freedom to choose and sometimes God gives us freedom to choose and sometimes he's like, no, this is the way walk in it.

And you don't know any of that unless you're walking in relationship and partnership with Him. Yeah. so even when I look at your story, some who don't understand all this might say, oh my gosh, like, should you have even ever got married? Right. They, they could almost be like, oh my gosh, they, she made a mistake and you and I don't see a mistake in any of it.

As we alluded to earlier, all the time, He knew. He ordained David to be your husband the four kids that were gonna come out of you were ordained to be created. 

[00:53:00] The new woman you are, the new man David is, the example you'd be for the Kingdom like that is and was His plan all along. At least in my opinion, it's a journey.

Yeah. It's just a journey. And that's, He loves it. It's an life is just an adventure with the Lord. Yes. Yeah. Wow. 

I'm thinking of the woman who might be sitting here and not even knowing where to start. Mm-hmm. You know, tell me, Christine, what you'd say. 'cause I feel like I would say to her, step one, first of all, it's okay where you are.You're okay. It's safe. You're not lost, you know, if today resonates with you, then similar to Christine's yoga experience, you might have just had the King of all Kings drop a seed inside of you to activate new revelation and a new journey, and it begins today. 

[00:54:00] What might you, Christine, tell that person right now to do from here?

What could be a next step for her?

Wrestle it out with the Lord. Yeah. I mean, I could say join the Collective -- my leadership cohort. There you go. Some of the soul trainings that I have, I love that because I am all about equipping you. Yes. This is my heart. Yeah. But honestly, this is about, it's a personal journey that you get to have with the Lord.

Yeah. And so engage with Him. Yeah. And He wants to show you the things He wants to, to walk with you in at all. And He's not afraid of the questions. He wants your questions and mm-hmm. Uh, and honestly, I, I will tell you that most of my prayers are, uh, they're not answered right away. Yeah, I'll ask the Lord something.

And you know, like Lenee’ and I are in a beautiful mastermind together where we create space to hear the Lord. 

[00:55:00] And so often we'll come to a call and we'll ask the Lord something. And sometimes people get answers right away. Like the Lord will just show up in whether it's an emotion or a picture or, um, some words.

Oftentimes with me, the Lord will have me wrestle with Him and I will say a question and I will make space I'll go on a walk, I will go the next day and I'll ask the same question, you know, and then I'll just. Watch you just open your eyes and be ready to hear, be ready to see, because He will reveal things and be things people say.  Yeah. In songs in nature, like in, in even circumstances that might come. Yeah. You'll be like, whoa. Like, okay. So it's, He is in everywhere. He is everything. And so as you continue to approach Him with open ears and open eyes, he is so faithful to reveal Himself. 

[00:56:00] Absolutely. I was gonna, I, I feel like you're confirming, because I would've said, get with Him, get quiet exercise, listening and asking questions.

Listen and ask questions and, you know, in the beginning your head might be in the way. It might feel clunky. You might overanalyze again, practice constant use. You learn something when you exercise these things. Also in the beginning, you might need to reach out to those who you trust in the Lord.

There's safety in a multitude of counselors, scripture says, mm-hmm. Sometimes in the beginning when you don't feel confident doing it yourself alone with the Lord, you do need a community of people to potentially help you. You certainly can look at the show notes on my podcast and see a little telephone.

You can leave me a message and if you wanna wrestle through something together, let's do it. 

[00:57:00] That's why we're here. Christine and I are here to her point, to equip you to give away what the Lord has so graciously given us. Yeah. I love it. And the word is alive and active. Ah, yes. So scripture, uh, He will use the scripture.Yeah. He speaks the scripture. I can't tell you how Yeah. He has equipped with the scripture. So, yeah. Uh, first and foremost, eat the word. Yeah, eat that. It and you'll, uh, confirm and reaffirm Yeah. All of the things. It'll come to life through all the other forms. Yep. It comes to life and you don't read it with your head.

Don't, don't sit with the word and try to understand it intellectually. It's okay to chew on it. It's okay to think about it. It's okay. I was, I was reading in Romans today and I would read and something would jump off of the page and I didn't really understand it intellectually, but I was like, okay, let me meditate on this.

[00:58:00] What would it have been like to be there in that time? who's the audience right now? What would've this have felt like? You know, Lord, what are you trying to say? And then let Him reveal. So don't try to figure it out with head knowledge, but eat it, consume it, and then let it do its work inside of you.

And sometimes I'll be in the shower two weeks later and all of a sudden something I read all of a sudden makes sense to me. Yeah. It's like the dot just connected. Okay. Okay, Lord, that's what you meant. Yeah. And then five years later I'll read the same thing. And while I did have revelation, then now I have deeper revelation.  Because like you said, it's living and active. 

I was a recent interview with somebody said, you know, God's love and a relationship with Him is four dimensional. And I was like, really? There's a fourth dimension, but doesn't it say that it's broad and high and deep and wide? It's four. 

[00:59:00] Like it's, there's no end to the depth we can go in our relationship with Him.  If we let Him, He'll take us four dimensionally where he wants to go and it'll blow our minds. Truly. Ephesians yeah. 3:19 That you may know the love that surpasses knowledge. Yes. What we know. Love that surpasses knowledge. What? It's a paradox That right. It. It's so good.

Well, my dear, what remains in the sponge that we have rung today that still needs to be rung out? Or do you feel like we've rung that sponge? 

Oh man, I've, I shared a lot. Um, of course there's more, but, um, yeah, maybe another time. Maybe another time. 

[01:00:00] Well, let's talk about what you have going on in ministry now.  You mentioned it, but let's just summarize here. What are all the various ways folks can get ahold of you and what do you have to offer? 

Well, like I mentioned, I published a book. It's a bible study curriculum, spiritual training for becoming a royal warrior, and it breaks apart 2 Timothy, 1:7, for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and discipline.

So it's a four-parter. We renounce fear. We participate in the spirit of power. We embrace the royal title given to us in love, and we engage in the battle with the spirit of discipline. And that is the crux of my whole ministry, honestly. Uh, that's where Train and Truth really kind of started. And I discovered that a lot of women would pick up the book and be super excited about it, but it's heavy.It's very meaty. Yeah. it takes a lot of effort to get through it. Yeah. Because it is super intentional and you gotta go deep to get through it. 

[01:01:00] Yeah. And so I started creating soul trainings. Mm. And this is an online curriculum that breaks apart these concepts in short daily trainings so that you are, uh, consistently getting in the word and learning and integrating these concepts.

So it's just very bite size. Yeah. But, uh, super intentional. So it's very simple. It, but it's really strategic and it's actually sustainable for people to Yeah. In the real, real messy every day, uh, to, to get in the word and to actually exercise it. So yeah, SOUL trainings are the online trainings that I, offer.

And then I also offer a, cohort, a leadership cohort where we practice, uh, leadership leading ourselves through all of this training. And then we practice, relationship as far as we've got, uh, accountability partners, 

[01:02:00] and then there's opportunities to lead in other spheres. and we just go through these trainings together.

So, that's only open four times a year because we do trainings together, but. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we will certainly have you provide the links that you would like us to share, and those will be in the show notes. Would you be open to praying us out of today's conversation? Yes. Yeah, that'd be great. 

Oh, Lord, God, you are so good.  Amen. You are so good. Lord, thank you that you desire to walk with us. Yes. That you desire, uh, intimate relationship and adventure. Uh, Father, thank you that you do lead, that you do give a direction, that you do give clarity. That, that you give joy, uh, that also you acknowledge our feelings. 

[01:03:00] You acknowledge right where we're at.  You acknowledge who you made us to be at the core, and, uh, and that you celebrate all that we are. And so I pray that that would resonate with whoever's listening, that they would feel celebrated by their God and their Maker, uh, that they would encounter you in a new way, that they would hear your voice clearly.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I just pray a blessing over every listener. It's in Your Name we pray. Amen. Yeah. And Father, I wanna join my sister. I just have this sense of the authority that we have, and when two or more gathered in your name, you are there. So thank you for being here, and we wanna stand in the gap with the authority you've given us, and we wanna pray in the mighty name of Jesus for our listeners, that the enemy will not prosper that the 

[01:04:00] weapons formed against our listeners will not prosper. I thank you that we have the power to bind and to loose. And today, Father, we stand in agreement. My sister and I stand in agreement on behalf of our listeners, and I just, I hear the scripture, he that shall come, will come. So Father, we just thank you.

Come for our listeners. Let them have just a renewed vision of you, a new spark in their step, in their soul, and a, a just a new testimony forming in their lives. We thank you. We bless you. We love you Lord. In Jesus' name, amen.

I am dying to know how you're feeling right now. What really popped for you? I love the clarity this conversation brings, especially for those of us who've lived under what we thought God expected, when in reality we were responding to something entirely

[01:05:00] different, and yet our precious Father will come and invite and reveal so that we're set free and we can rise to become the version of us He intended. 

Are you familiar with Ephesians 4:16? It's one of my favorites. It's speaking of the body of Christ, which is quote, being fitly joined together by that which every joint supplies, in other words, every part supplies something essential.

And did you know? That you're a necessary joint in the body. And when you're walking in truth free from striving free from misalignment, you bring something that no one else can. So when the Lord brings about circumstances to reveal our faulty belief systems and misplaced responsibility, He isn't doing it to condemn us.  He's doing it because He wants you 

[01:06:00] walking freely and that which you were meant to bring for the sake of the body of Christ.  How awesome are the ways of our Father? I pray that you're truly refreshed by today's episode… and in case you didn't know it, my book You Will Make Mistakes, is designed to crush the counterfeit gospel and help you experience what God truly means by grace.

I'll drop the link in the show notes or head on over to Amazon and get your copy. And if you're up for a fun little faith-based perfectionism quiz to see how much it might be affecting every area of your life, head over to my website at leneepezzano.com and take yours now. 

As for what's coming…to say the topic is timely and relevant is an understatement.

We will dive into the intersection of ADHD and faith. 

[01:07:00] Whether you've been diagnosed or you're wondering, or you just feel like your brain works differently, these next few episodes are gonna give you language, clarity, and direction. Mark your calendar because you are not going to want to miss this!

Until then, just know that I'm proud of you for your pursuit of the Lord.  And something to remember…God is not standing at the finish line waiting for you to get it right. He's walking with you in it. 

See you next time, Sis.